Words and Rules D2 (Ch. 3, 4, 5) and Debriefing – D55

The day didn’t look to good after a discussion like the one on Euclid, until our dialogue of Words and Rules. We were a small group, I think 12, and we had a very good dialogue. We respected the rubrics, asked genuine questions, were profound with the text, and had a great interaction of ideas. I didn’t take notes, but I recorded it. One of the most important things we discussed was the distinction between the theory developed by Chomsky and Halle (generative phonology, rules rule, rationalist, rules), and the theory of Rumelhart and McClelland (there are no rules, empiricism, words). Another important point is what Steven Pinker and Prince proposes according to these two theories:

“Prince and I have proposed a hybrid in which Chomsky and Halle are basically right about regular inflection and Rumelhart and McClelland are basically right about irregular inflection. Our proposal is simply the traditional words-and-rules theory with a twist. Regular verbs are computed by a rule that combines a symbol for a verb stem with a symbol for the suffix. Irregular verbs are pairs of words retrieved from the mental dictionary, a part of memory. Here is the twist: Memory is not a list of unrelated slots, like RAM in a computer, but is associative, a bit like the Rumelhart-McClelland pattern associator memory. Not only are words linked to words, but bits of words are linked to bits of words.” Page 117-118.

Euclid? Big Discussion – D55

Everything appeared to be normal, just a regular Euclid class, until Ingrid mentioned a new standard calling for exact precision on our drawings, making them with previous propositions. She tried to make proposition 4, but didn’t succeed in doing so, showing that that exercise is not practical in the future propositions. We did agree that we would do them as precise as possible using our tools like the compass. The discussion evolved into finding a solution for a better learning process of Euclid. What we concluded is that we should divide the class into three groups, chosen by affinity, and to have standards for all of us for presenting and documenting the propositions, but each group will have its own rubrics and objectives, although the general objective for everyone is to finish up to proposition 30 for this semester. My group is Pablito, Alejo, Gabbi, Chacho, and Isa. This is our rubric:

We also talked about excuses and “getting real”, and how we have been interacting as a group and giving each other feedback. There were different views on the topic, some (Gabbi, Alejo, and some other I don’t remember) were saying we should have a third person, like a moderator or psychologist to mediate with each of us, and others (Carmen, Lucía, Kata, and some others) were saying we don’t need that and that it should be a personal approach with each other, that it has to be within us and not to wait for other person. I agreed with both sides by saying that the change and proactivity to solve problems comes within us, and that it could help having a workshop on how to work better as a group. I also tried to keep calm and mediate the opposite views, trying to reach an agreement on what should we do next as a group. I think I did a good job doing this and proposing solutions to these problems. At the end, we advanced in our organization and I take something positive of the discussion.

Having some fun and “Workshop” – D54

After performing arts, we had some individual work and just before we had the workshop Bert planned for us at 4 p.m. we played some football and have fun at the Jardín Ayau. I was a team with Isa (we won of course), and Carmen, Pablito, and Franz were the other team.

For the workshop, first Bert showed us what we had to do for next week in order to deliver successfully our portfolio. The instructions were as follows:

•         Put yourself on the map
• List the readings and commentary you still have to complete.
• Write a guide to your documentation, highlighting for the reader certain features and content that represents your learning this term.
• Make a daily plan to recover and complete any work by February 4^th, 2013.
• Choose a chapter of one of our books that is particularly meaningful to you to present to the group on Thursday, December 13, 2012.
• Friday celebration at Kyle’s Library Project.

Later, we got into our groups of three and made two moral systems of some author Bert mentioned but I don’t quite remember. Here is the picture of how we divided the virtues and vices. We were close to made the two systems as the author made them, but here is the comparison for you to judge.

Finally, Bert gave us the Dialogue Rubric of the juniors (16-year-old students) at School of the Woods. It’s very interesting how many similarities we found with our rubric, and of course we would grab some ideas to incorporate to our rules. We talked about this rubric and our thoughts on it. Nothing really interesting happened to be honest. So far for today (now it’s 6:10 p.m.) Along with Alejo we stayed playing football-tenis at an improvised court in the individual work room. The match was close (51-47), but I lost. We left at 7 p.m. 

Emerson’s Comeback and Debriefing – D51

Today’s programming class was cancelled because Kyle is being very busy since he is about to launch his new project. Instead of having a programming class, we read Emerson’s Self-Reliance, which was very fitted to the moment we are living at the MPC. Nice comeback, Emerson! We only read like one page and a half, but had a great dialogue, inquiring into a deeper sense his ideas. One of the most important things we talked was about the importance to judge the past in order to improve our present. If we change the meaning of our past experiences by learning through those past experiences, we will be more prepared and succeed in the present and future. We related to the gratitude of the past Bert mentioned during our Thanksgiving dialogue.

The debriefing went pretty good. It feels good to have a peaceful debriefing and focus on the positive things we have been doing and did during the day. Definitely the most touched person today was Gabbi, because she had a rough start on the morning by confronting Bert and almost leaves the MPC for the day, but she came back, fixed things with Bert, and had an active participation during the Consilience dialogue, although she was on the outer circle. It’s very interesting how people can discover their potential through many ways and some are not pretty, but when you know you can positively contribute to others’ learning process of life and knowledge, and you commit yourself to become better and better, you can do wonderful things. If everyone could realize this, at least on the MPC, our culture would change dramatically. 

Consilience (Ch 7-8) Dialogue – D51

Pretty good dialogue, very interesting, and insightful. Dialogues like this make you think we are improving our dialogue skills, respecting our rubrics, and in general terms, progressing as a group. Nice comeback MPCers! Karen stayed for the dialogue, although in the outer circle since she was late.

Here are my notes on the dialogue:

• What are epigenetic rules?
• “They are the algorithms of growth and differentiation that create a fully functioning organism.” p.163
• The role of culture in evolution. Can culture change more rapidly evolution than genes, and how?
• Behaviors predisposed to humans. Color vision, language.
• Is culture the result of these epigenetic traits?
• “Epigenetic rules are prescribed by genes” . p.138 (very important page)
• “Epigenetic rules leave open the potential generation of an immense array of cultural variations and combinations.” P.210 (vip)
• Epigenetic rules as the reptilian brain that along with the mammal brain form the limbic system. This system is what “instinctively” makes us react somehow to different situations. These predisposed behaviors are the epigenetic rules. The main functions of the reptilian brain are survival and reproduction. Usually it tends to do three things to different situations: freeze, defend, or attack. 

• What are the inherited traits?
• Traits for survival and reproduction mainly, the epigenetic rules.
• 
  
• What is human nature?
• The relation between genes, epigenetic rules, and institutions.
• 
  
•  Are ethics an example of epigenetic rules? How about Rubrics?

• Culture transcends to the mind? Institutions can guide the mind?
• Bert: As long as we take these institutions into our mind, we will remove or modify our primary epigenetic rules.
• Hyperactive kids as obeying their natural epigenetic rules, and institutions can change them (they become more obedient and tame).
• Institutions mutate our epigenetic rules?

Marce’s Morning Meeting and Sharing – D51

Marce facilitated today’s morning meeting. She showed us a video called, People and the Choices They Make, by Jim Rohn, a motivational speaker. The video is about the importance of documentation, accountability, and being the best one can be. Only humans have the capacity to decide how much to grow (not physically but mentally) and that’s what makes us different from all other beings. Trees grow to their full capacity, it’s their nature, but our nature could be to conform and if we don’t decide to be the best we can be, to give everything we can, we will tend to conform. Another thought on this is the will power, the energy that keep us moving forward. How big is the difference between waking up tired and not wanting to wake up, and waking up with more energy to keep moving forward, success after success. In the latter, we can expand our energy storage, fueling it with our actions and successes.

After that, we share our linkage. Today, only Kira, Tony, Karen, and Marce, shared their linkage. The first three were visiting us for the day.

Debriefing – D50

We started today’s debriefing by sharing our perspectives of the Euclid class, and most of them or all, were very positive. We are all happy with this new method of going with a group that you can follow according to your standards and capacity of learning. The other thing we discussed was about commitment. It started with Isa’s interjection of stating her frustration and unhappiness with some MPCers, since they are not showing commitment at all. The discussion was long and exhausting because some, especially Lucía, when pointed out of their flaws reacted in a negative way, not accepting the feedback and making up excuses. I must congratulate Chacho and Alejo, because the three of us were, I think, the most sincere people when talking to another MPCer. It surprised me a little when Chacho said that Lucía was sinking our boat with her lack of commitment and respect, and that she should reconsider staying on the MPC. Alejo’s intervention was mostly the same when he said that if she was not willing to give her best, then it would be better for her to leave to a cruise she was planning on applying. My intervention was mainly because of her lack of respect during most of the dialogues she is in the outer circle and some even when she is in. Also, when doing other activities. But I mainly focused on her actions during today’s dialogue of Words and Rules, because she was not being real by being on her phone and constantly leaving the room and getting back in, showing her disinterest and disrespect on the dialogue. She tried to counter argue by saying we (Chacho, Isa, Alejo, and I) were not perfect and she mentioned some actions we did that were not correct. That really bothered me so I told her that those comparisons were not near correct, because of the difference in the times we committed them (almost never) and her constant failures. This is how it ended, pretty rough but feeling very good that we said it and that some us are thinking alike for improving our culture.

By the way, I thought I was going to rest some today since we were leaving early (at 3:20 p.m.) but I found out I had this Logo called Domando al Cocodrilo. It’s about psychology and how can we control our brain. I think it would relate a lot with Thinking, Fast and Slow, and Consilience. I leave at 8:30 p.m. nice, ha?

Words and Rules Dialogue 1 – D50

For this first true dialogue on Words and Rules, only ten of us were there on time. The ones on the outer circle were Isa, Marce, Alejo, JavierT, Lucía, and Gaby. Only Isa and most of the time Marce and Alejo, were doing a good role being on the outer circle. The other ones were on their phones and not paying attention at all.

The dialogue was good, very organized, and following the rubric. We talked about the main topic of the book, its meta-question you may say. We concluded that by viewing on the preface, “This book tries to illuminate the nature of language and mind by choosing a single phenomenon and examining it from every angle imaginable. That phenomenon is regular and irregular verbs, the bane of every language student.” I see this as the main topic is the nature of language, which can be transmitted through words and rules, and exemplified with regular and irregular verbs. As we talked more about the book, we discussed a mixture of the first three chapters although our focus was on chapter one. These questions popped during the dialogue, What is language? Is language inherent to humans or is it something we learn or imitate? Is language an spontaneous order? Well, my thoughts are that language is inherent to humans, because we will always find a way to communicate, whether spoken or written, but we will. Now, spoken language, grammar, words, and rules are products of an evolutionary process of spontaneous order. Babies do not imitate older people, well not in the long term, since they find the rules that govern their particular language. So, yes language is getting more interesting, who would’ve said?

“Hello World!” and Debriefing – D49

In today’s programming class, we finished our web app on Heroku! It’s very simple and only says “Hello World!”, but it’s a start in order to build more interesting apps like Euclid’s Sorting Hat.

Today’s debriefing was a little different than it’s used to, because Bert showed us a video called, Stuck on an Escalator, about how people think they are stuck in something when they are really not stuck at all. The other thing Bert shared with us was a couple of quotes regarding education and personal commitment. The main reason Bert shared these with us was to reflect on how we are feeling at the MPC, and how that is a natural thing to feel that we can overcome if we work together.

This is the quote he showed to us:
"Socrates was one of the first to recognize the intimate and necessary relationship between education and personal commitment. His pedagogy was skillfully shaped to penetrate the protective armor of custom and opinion to release in the suddenly exposed and vulnerable individual a sense of shocked engagement. The aim of the elenchus—the name given to his teaching method—was to give birth to a desire for authentic learning. Intellectually, the elenchus, as it worked on the student, moved from strongly held opinion, to floundering uncertainty, to loss, to not-knowing, that engendered the authentic quest for meaning, the desire for finding out. Emotionally, the elenchus began with smug ease (‘I know what I think’) that dissolved into unease, then into anguish, then into concern and, finally, into collaborative and reflective curiosity." (Peter Abbs, The Educational Imperative: Socratic and Aesthetic Learning, p. 17)

Thanksgiving Lunch and Debriefing – D48

After a tough week, we got a little relief by having a Thanksgiving lunch. We invited the people who are supporting us and have been close to us, those are, Giancarlo Ibargüen, Helmuth Chávez, Carla Hess, Kassandra Rugg, Kyle Passarelli, Dylan Evans, Gabriel Calzada, Juanma Bonifasi, Daniel Herbruger, Adrián Ravier, Tony Ung, Kira Martins, and Ana Isa Gadala. We also invited Amable Sánchez, Sam Bonis, Moris Polanco, and Zach Caceres, but they couldn’t join us for lunch. Of course, all MPC’ers were there as well as Bert and Ingrid. We had a great time eating a lot of food and having great conversations. I sat with Giancarlo, Juanma, Mabe, and Alejo, and we had a nice conversation about knowledge, the mind, psychology, the MPC, ants, economics, freedom, and the history of Thanksgiving (it started as a celebration of private property and freedom!). Everything went great and as planned, and everybody loved the sweet potatoes with marshmallows and nuts I brought!

For the debriefing, we read what everybody wrote on our Thanksgiving tree (I’m thankful for…), had some laughs, and talked about the good things of this day. Nice way to end the week…

I’m thankful for… – D48

As I already told you, we decided to move the Thanksgiving activity for until everybody was at the MPC. We gathered and circled up at around 10:30 and started to say what we were thankful for. It was a great activity, very emotional, and there was a lot of crying (only the ladies). I liked it a lot, and it made me reflect of what I’m truly thankful for. It was kind of difficult to put it into words, but when I finally said it, it was great. Just seeing everybody share what they are thankful made the environment a very trustful one.

What I said was this, “Well, I’m thankful for being me, for having the capacity to actually think for myself, the capacity to make decisions, and with what Javier just mentioned, I mean I was trying to put this into words and I think you explained it very very well. I mean this series, I don’t know if I can call them coincidences, but as Alejo was saying, I mean we were studying economics and we were only three semesters from graduating and while as different from Alejo I did started the semester, but then we encountered in the faculty and we started talking about the assignations and all that stuff and he mentioned the MPC, and then while, I mean, the whole Deirdre McCloskey dialogue was like a huge coincidence for me, because I then realized that when I saw you guys and the group, I knew it would be a great group, so it encouraged me to actually make that move from what I was studying and get to the MPC. Well, actually it was the whole day. At first I attended the conference of Deirdre McCloskey and then went to the dialogue, and after it… I mean, I was working with this idea of education the whole year and when we had the dialogue (although it was not the best one (laughs)), but after I was talking with Bert, I mean it was just a, I don’t know if a coincidence of events that led me to actually make the decision that I was going to get to the MPC. And of course, for my family for supporting me. I’m thankful for that. And yeah, I’m thankful for being here, for having the capacity to reason, and to I mean, practically live with you guys and learn from you and from the people around me.”

I say a lot “I mean” haha. 

Morning Meeting and Dialogue with Dylan (Thinking… Ch 7 & 8) – D48

After a debriefing like the one on yesterday, you may think that everyone reflected about their behavior and realized they were not doing a good job at the MPC, but apparently no. Only ten of us arrived on time. For the morning meeting we had planned an activity in which we would tell what we were thankful for, since it’s Thanksgiving, but because of Bert’s petition and common agreement, we moved it until everybody were here.

Later, at 9:30, Dylan arrived for our dialogue on Thinking, Fast and Slow, chapters 7 and 8. Some of the topics we discussed (although some in a very superficial way) were finding someone attractive is not a “basic assessment”, automatic processing in visual system/internal chatterbox, halo effect (Is there a way to control our subconscious halo effect?) (Our mind is a network of associations that activate other areas.), are there objective judgments?, WYSIATI (what you see is all there is). It was an interesting dialogue, but I have to admit that I didn’t take full advantage of it since I was not well prepared for it.

A book Dylan recommended us: “A Journey Around My Room” by Xavier Maistre.

The most real debriefing so far – D47

As I mentioned before, one of the reasons of this hot debriefing was the disrespect towards Kata on the earlier tour. She told us she felt really bad and that we have been the worst group she has ever guided. Isa, Mabe, and Kata wrote a letter that they read and this led to further discussion of many topics. I will not detail them since it would be too long, but the main topics we discussed were the influence of Bert in the group (some are still seeing him as an authority), the lack of commitment, the lack of a common ground of things to do and principles and values, the lack of trust we have in the group (although we like to think of us as a family, clearly we are not there yet), the lack of standards and the confusion some have regarding this, the lack of good communication and the nonconformity with “the rules of the game” that Bert omitted to tell us when we entered the MPC, and the lack of bonding we have as a group. We discussed many things in a deep sense, so the debriefing lasted for more than 1.5 hours, all leaving around 8 p.m. Long and productive day. I think almost everyone and I can surely talk about myself, that we left the MPC with more energy and without a weight in our chests because we liberated things that needed to talk. I’m not saying its perfect now, it’s far from that, but it improved our process of culture building.

Programming class (Sinatra) – D47

For the programming class, Kyle showed us how to build a web app using a program called Sinatra. We didn’t finish building it because there were some details Kyle didn’t know, but it was a good start. I have to say that the class was a little disappointing because of the disrespect of almost all of us to Kyle. At first I have to admit that I was distracted viewing dog photos with Isa, but then I engaged in the class while others were very distracted and kept holding back our progress in the class. They were doing something else and not paying attention to Kyle, so they got frustrated because they didn’t understand and basically they were kind-of whining. The MPC’ers were Marce, Gaby, Chacho, Lucía, Lore, Mabe, Isa, and I. I felt a little embarrassed with Kyle because of our behavior so I apologized with him at the end of the class. By the way, at the middle of the class Dylan interrupted and started to talk with Mabe, and Kyle, well, he basically told Dylan to go.

Euclid’s Propositions (7 – 10) – D46

At 9:30 we circled up to demonstrate this week’s propositions. I was in charge of taking out the papers to chose who was presenting and the first one was Majo for Proposition 7. At first, I thought she was doing it good, but then we realized she wasn’t really prepared and we she stood in front for an hour trying to understand the proposition until she kind-of got it. I assume it was terrible for her, I mean it also happened to me but only for 5 minutes or so not an hour. The good thing was that she realized she needed more preparation and to make a better effort in understanding Euclid. She agreed to start Euclid again from Proposition 1. Then Kata volunteered to make Proposition 7. Javier T. did number 8, Isa did number 9, and Mabe did number 10 (which she wasn’t prepared to do it). There was a lot of feedback, especially in Kata’s and Mabe’s presentations. Isa and Javier did a good job. 

Debriefing, now more calmly – D45

The debriefing was very good. It was a nice way to end our stressful day and to gain more energy for tomorrow. We clarified many topics that were wandering and needed to be addressed, and everyone committed to refocus and behave according to our standards. One of the things I liked the most was Isa’s letter regarding the troubles we’ve been having as a group, the reasons she believed to be the causes of these behaviors (which I agreed with, mainly frustration and having too many things on our plate (which is also our fault)), and some recommendations to improve on this. I don’t want to get into too many details, but I can tell you that it was a very productive debriefing. One thing I apologized with was my reaction towards Pablito earlier today, because I was a little angry that everyone wasn’t listening (they were hearing but not listening) and somehow he interrupted me (not precisely when I was speaking but after I asked a question) so I just said to him “No cerote”. I didn’t notice it until someone told me I said that, so I apologized immediately with him and then after in debriefing. Seeing it in retrospective, it’s kind of funny though haha. In conclusion, a very nice way to end up the day. We even ended the debriefing at 7:15 p.m. Carla and Helmuth joined us for this part of the day.

Singing? Individual Work and more Individual Work – D45

For performing arts, we started to work formally on the madrigal “Let us sing with one accord”, so each one of us got their melody to start practicing their rhythm and singing. It was mostly an individual work since we didn’t practice as a group, but it was fine that way.

After that we had individual work (which I didn’t use properly. Well, I did some Euclid) until 4:30 p.m. Then, Kyle notified us that he wasn’t coming today and that caused a bit of trouble. We got into a circle and tried to decide what we were going to do. Some said more individual work, some said group work for programming. It was kind of a dilemma and you could easily tell that most of us are very frustrated of how things are going. We had a small debrief and realize we are not behaving according to our standards, especially when Bert is not with us. What is it? Are we still in a need for some authority? Unfortunately, I think that is happening. We are not yet truly self-governed. Our learning curve has slowed down a lot, and I’m afraid of that getting worse. In conclusion, everybody did what we wanted (mostly individual work) and Kyle is coming tomorrow to replace the class. Of course, some said they couldn’t stay after 3 p.m. so only some of us are staying tomorrow.

Programming Class? – D33

This afternoon and for the first time, Kyle run an hour late for our programming class. Meanwhile, he told us that the two groups missing to present their Project Euler Problem should present and when he arrive, we will discuss a couple of chapters of Taming the Infinite. It was hard for everyone to pay attention to the first group presenting, and for the rest of the class only some dedicated some work to solving the problem. When Kyle arrived, he started helping the group who was solving the problem and the rest of the class did practically nothing but talk. In the solving group were Isa, Alejo, Mabe, Chacho, Marce, and Grace. I dedicated my time to talk with Carmen and Carla, but nothing more. It was a very interesting talk though.

During debriefing, the commitment issue surged again, mainly because of the problem in programming class. Once again, everybody committed to be more self-governed and make a greater effort. And that was it for this Monday… 

The Right Perspective: Lore’s Morning Meeting – D31

For the first or second time since we began de MPC, we were all on time (except Ingrid in both occasions). It was great to start the day like this. Today was Lorena’s first direction of a morning meeting. After some announcements, she showed us a video called "Having the Right Perspective", by Joel Osteen, a Christian preacher and a great speaker. I have to admit that at first I thought it would be a video of Christian values and finding God, and I don’t like those kinds of messages. I was wrong. The video talks about having a level of gratitude for what we have, and not complain of what’s possible wrong with our life. It is about finding, in everything, the positive aspect. It also relates with the previous video we watched called, “Celebrating what’s right in the world”. It’s not that having a positive attitude will fix everything or that we have to ignore our problems and wrong things we have, it’s about having a better perspective to confront the problems we may have.

We had individual work until 11 a.m. Then we were supposed to have a dialogue on “The Trivium”, but since almost everyone had not read more than 50 pages, Bert talked to us about commitment and “giving a shit” for the MPC. After this pep talk, we did start the dialogue, which was based on, “what is the metaquestion of chapter 1?” We inquire in many of the chapter’s topics, and at first concluded that the metaquestion was, “what are the liberal arts and what is its purpose”. Later, we talked about other related subjects such as the trivium as the only way of finding the truth, since the trivium stands for all aspects of communication. We didn’t got to answer the metaquestion, but it was a very interesting dialogue.

Euclid time and Debriefing – D30

Once again, after lunch we worked on the first three Euclid’s propositions individually. I started practicing the proposition four, but then decided to practice a little more the first three. Later, Alejo and I practiced the demonstrations of these with each other and received feedback. I think I know how to do them very well by now.

As you may know, today was a short day so after Euclid, we debriefed. It was supposed to start at 2:30 p.m. but some were late, which made us talk about commitment issues that lead to other important subjects as well. One thing I didn’t like was Bert’s attitude toward me, because at first the only ones at the circle were Chacho, Mabe, Alejo, Bert, and I, so Alejo and I were talking when Bert asked something to Mabe and demanded we paid her attention, when it seemed that they were only talking to each other. I made the claim that every time, except for the morning meeting, we wait for everyone to start, but he responded me in a very impolite and inconsistent way, even ignoring me. I didn’t pay to much attention to him, for my conviction I was standing for what we all agreed was correct and I thought he was only having a rough time making everyone committed with the MPC. Nevertheless, I despise those types of attitudes and just made me remember how people respond to different situations.

After some 6 or 7 minutes, everyone was at the circle so we started talking about commitment issues and some proposed that we should let everyone in if they were late, even though they could only participate as listeners in the morning meeting. Alejo and I opposed to this idea entirely, contrary to what almost everybody wanted. I don’t think of it as a good idea, because it gives the wrong incentives to not care if one is late. I think it should be a personal commitment if you really care to be at the MPC, and also a matter of respect to your classmates. What surprised me a lot was to hear some voices like Lucía, Franz, Majo, and the Javieres, defending this idea and talking about commitment when one can see they are the least committed to the MPC, or at least of arriving on time. We had a long time discussing this and although I stood to my position, everyone except Alejo agreed on the idea, so I made it very clear that I didn’t thought this was the solution and that didn’t agreed on it, but if everybody else wanted to try it, so be it. The other subject was the silent room, which Alejo proposed to eliminate because it didn’t worked. I supported that motion, and as a “surprise”, almost everyone opposed to it. We “won” the argument by saying that it was the same thing as allowing late arrivals, because it’s the same principle that applies. The principle that we talked before was the flexibility with the rules and remaining open to evolve and change them. Apparently, the ones that were opposed and especially Javier P. didn’t understand their “argument, principle” very well or at all, because they were not consistent on applying it on all cases. So, this is how our day ended, but don’t get me wrong, it was hilarious to discuss all of these.